Ladue voters, this is your chance to vote in our pre-election April 3 poll. Tell us which way you are leaning.

"Elementary schools, the likes of Conway, Little Ladue (Reed today), Spoede, and others go back even further than that."

The year 1002 per Baer's last article.

Nice poll. The voting options are outrageously biased. I am surprised the no option wasn't phrased "I hate children so I will be voting against Prop 1".

While I will be voting for Prop 1, I am highly disappointed by this unprofessional polling technique, which I have pointed out before as well (most recently, the sidewalk poll, which Mr. Baer actually passed on to the city council). If you aren't able to construct a fair, unbiased poll, then forgo them all together.

"We have no say over utility rates. If we have severe winter weather (the district incurred several recent years), costs go up." Must have been a killer this year!
"More than 80 percent of Ladue’s money is spent on salaries and benefits for its teachers and administers (sic)." So - this tax gouge is "for the children"? No, it's for the teachers and administrators. Shameless to use children to manipulate people into voting you a salary hike.

JFB,
Who do you think should teach children? Robots? Don't teachers deserve pay and benefits. I was a substitute teacher for three years, and I saw myself how incredibly hard they work, and the amount of dedication shown to their students. We're not talking about Albert Pujols' salary.

So far, 47 residents have voted in our poll, just out two hours. Looks like passing might be in the cards according to the responses we get.

It is a GOOD thing that 80% of the district's budget is spent on teachers and administrators. The "product" our schools produce is education and education is imparted through teachers (note that our cost for administrators is in line or less than comparable districts). We don't have opulent facilities (or even adequate buses to ferry all of the children that cannot practically be expected to walk to school), because we choose to spend our limited resources on educating our kids. That doesn't mean that the teachers are getting rich. Indeed, I believe that the teachers are currently earning less in take-home pay than they did a few years ago, thanks to hefty increases in their share of benefits.

Darci,
Brilliantly stated. Amen!

Quick tally: 81 votes-62 yes (76 percent); 17 no (20 percent); 2 undecided (2 percent). The "No" people might say only "Yes" people read Patch. Free country, keep on sending in your votes.

To date, 104 have voted in the Prop 1 Ladue poll. 78 voted yes, or 75 percent of the vote. Polls are still open.

My child attends private school, and I pay tuition. . I don't want to pay for my neighbor's children too. If parents want small class sizes, decent facilities, and lunch at noon, and no derelicts, then buck up and send them to private schol!
Don't ask everyone else to pay for it, while you happily send your kids to school for free. Enough with the tax hikes to pay for pensioners!

130 votes. 90 say yes or 70 percent of the total. Plenty of work left for the Prop 1 committee, but this appears to be a positive start.

No I'm not kidding. Worse than free, your kids go to school, paid for by me. I can live where I want. You are a communist.

@ Rinaldi: It is shame that you have decided to resort to personal attacks and name calling. I won't participate in this type of discussion.

Laduemom - you ARE a communist. Rinaldi isn't name calling - just clarifying that you prefer others to pay your bills. He didn't snarkily advise you to move to the ghetto. Nor did he discount the taxes that you pay - he pays them also, and bucks up for a school he prefers as well. You could always move to a cheap apartment, and send your kids to private school with the money you saved, if the school was a priority. Many private schools also serve lunch at 10:30 due to crowding and schedule problems. It's not the end of the world.
Baer - knowing you are an ex-teacher explains your overt bias. And frankly, robots are teaching the kids. Reflexively liberal, unionized, robots. Like, well, certain impartial editors. Nice work on your scientific poll, though.

JFB,

I don't know where you went to school, but you do not know the definition of communism.

The reason for government is to accomplish things that individuals cannot accomplish on their own. Public education in the America predates the founding of the country and goes back almost 400 years.

If you do not think that strong public schools are important to the area and the country as a whole, you have the right to be wrong.

Please do not call people names when you obviously have no idea what the names mean.

Taxes are a reality none of us enjoy. We need to accept that a certain amount of taxation is a necessary evil. This proposition is not going to fund abortions, welfare, healthcare for illegal immigrants, etc. This is to fund something that has real and tangible impact on ALL of us.

The quality of the schools does impact property values. There is no doubt that the high ratings Ladue schools have had will fall without adequate funding. There is no doubt that the appeal of living in Ladue for many people includes the quality of the schools. Currently, the $ per student spent is lagging significantly behind many neighboring townships. Ladue residents have been enjoying high quality schools at a relative bargain.

If our public schools falter, there is going to be increased demand for private school enrollment. Tuitions at private schools will likely rise as well. The interest in residing in Ladue for many will fall. Why pay Ladue prices when I can move to Richmond hights, University Hills, Webster, etc. and send my kid to MICDS? Selling your house in Ladue for the same price is alot harder.

We can afford to pay similar amount per student as Clayton and other nearby districts.

The video with Baer interviewing Chappelow is wrong. Baer says "it has been 29 years since the district asked for an operating tax increase." She agrees with him. The board sought a tax increase in Prop L is 2004 and it was handily defeated 2 to 1. I think that was 8 years, not 29.

I'm so disheartened by the willful information distortion and self-centeredness of the "No" supporters on this board. So much for a sense of community!

No reason to argue with these folks. Let them vote no and continue to teach their kids the value of isolation and pure self interest over the common good. .

On a side note, I have a jeep. I don't want my tax money to go to nice roads in Ladue so JFB and Rinaldi can cruise around smoothly in their Lexus and Mercedes taking their kids to their luxury schools. Snow plows? Communist. Police? I can take care of myself.

It always makes me chuckle when some damn fool only wants their tax money to go to things they want. Anything beyond that is a "handout."

Susan, I am not the leader of, nor the spokesman for the opposition committee. I am sure they can and will speak for themselves at a time and place of their choosing, not yours. If you read their website you will see they clearly state they are using total dollars sent to the schools by taxpayers. The website states that there is a disagreement in the number used by the two groups and explains why. Your group only uses one figure and ignores the larger, total dollars figure. You are the one who refuses to acknowledge it is a true statement. Regardless of the rhetoric on either side, it is going to come down to how much this costs each homeowner. The opposition committee is telling everyone (not just private school parents as was suggested by a Vote yes email circulating this morning) exactly how much it will cost. It is the job of the Vote for higher taxes group to persuade people they ought to pay it. They have chosen to use the normal fear tactics (declining home values, overcrowding and today I even saw the tried and true "trailer" threat). The school board does a great job of communicating to its parental base. I don't think anyone can deny it has done a horrible job communicating with senior citizens and private school parents. All the goodwill that was built by Dr. Benson who reached out and got the support of the No group on the 2007 election has evaporated. Whose fault is that?They didn't reach out. Didn't make one call. That's pretty lame.

I agree CCK. If you look at MICDS as an example, the tuition paid by parents does not even cover the cost to educate a child. They expect their community to contribute additional funds for the education of children attending their school. Here are the numbers from the MICDS site regarding the cost per student:

Total cost to educate a student: $22,604
Tuition & fees (*): $17,752
Annual Fund: $1,500
Endowment Income: $2750
Other Income: $602

This number only represents the amount needed in the operating budget to educate a child (salary, benefits and supplies). So, their cost per student is really $22,604 if you use the same accounting principals as the Ladue School District has used. I cannot calculate the cost per student in the same fashion as the NO Group because I could not find the debt associated with their property.

It truly saddens me to live a very wealthy community where there are residents who could care less about the schools, think they get plenty of money and don't need any more, and feel the schools must somehow be financially irresponsible if they need a tax increase and are completely and totally misinformed on the facts and don't care if they twist them to justify their case. It is truly criminal that the public school district is constantly under attack by a population of this community.This is a great community where people want to live and send their kids to the public schools. When we moved here 12 years ago that is the only reason we picked Ladue. It makes me sad to see the schools decline and the Vote No people wanting to destroy them futher and ruin this community. The vote no people will be all alone in their big lonely homes unable to ever sell them because no one will want to move to Ladue. Private schools are not going to draw people to live in Ladue- it is the public schools. Ask any realtor and I am sure they will tell you what makes an area in demand. Never have a heard a realtor say "the public schools are not good but they have great private schoools and that is what is more important." Even if you plan to send your kids to private schools you still want to live in area with good public schools in the event you need to send your kids there or need to sell your home. This is real estate 101.

The Vote No Group would like us to believe that the home values in Ladue (63124) are high, in large part, due to the private schools located in Ladue. There are 3 major private schools in Ladue (Burroughs, MICDS and Community). The other private schools are located in surrounding communities like Creve Coeur. If the number of private schools in a community directly impacts home values, then Creve Coeur should have the highest home values in the area since it has many more private schools in its zip code.

Students who attend private school come from all over St. Louis. Using MICDS as an example, their website boasts that students at MICDS come from 59 different zip codes around the St. Louis area. While I am sure that many private school students do live in the 63124 zip code, could that also be related to the type of homes located in that area as opposed to the proximity to their school? I don't begrudge anyone of their success or their choice to use private schools. I just think it is naive to think that great public schools do not impact the community as a whole. I could afford to send my children to private school, but we chose the Ladue School District instead. I know many, many families in our District are the same. We are doctors and lawyers and successful business people. We live in nice houses, pay our taxes, and contribute to our communities. We are not looking for a handout -- just a quality education for our children!

You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own set of facts. The Ladue School District per pupil expenditure was $12,992.41 in the 2010-11 school year and is lower this year due to the approx. $7 million dollars that the board cut this year.

2010 - 2011 Expenditure Per Pupil
District Per Pupil Expenditure Difference from Ladue Schools
Clayton $18,065.88 $5,073.47
Brentwood $17,342.06 $4,349.65
Maplewood-Richmond Heights $14,894.84 $1,902.43
Pattonville $13,681.94 $689.53
Ladue $12,992.41 ---
University City $12,574.57 -417.84
Normandy $12,424.59 -$567.82
Kirkwood $12,295.80 -$696.61
Parkway $11,960.88 -$1,031.53

http://www.commit2ladue.org . MJF Take the time to get informed. I pay the same taxes as I live in Ladue as well but the quality of the public schools is very important to me so I feel like it is money I can't afford not to spend. How do you propose the district educate an addiional 700 new kids on less money? They have already cut over 7 million from the budget but you feel this isn't enough? There have been teacher layoffs but this still isn't enough? When is it enough for you? There is no more room to cut without signifcantly impacting education. These are the facts not dramatizations. Deep cuts will happen but this seems ok with you? This affects everyone in the community. This will impact home values as it has already. Ladue School District isn't as good as Clayton School District anymore. This tax increase only keeps the district from declining any further. If my math is correct your home must be valued at over 3 million dollars. Maybe if your tax bill is such a hardship you should downsize.

For the Vote No proponents, I understand not wanting to pay more taxes. I don't want to pay any more taxes either. But, when we moved to Ladue & decided to build our home, we made that decision 100% based on the schools. We considered private schools, went through the admissions process, & our oldest was admitted to several fantastic private schools. We decided to go with Ladue Schools based on a number factors. Yes, I was concerned about the impact of having such a wide range of students in one classroom, but I took comfort in the fact that the class sizes in Ladue were historically low. Also, based on the wide range of special classes & options available for high-performing students, we decided to move to Ladue. I have to think I am not alone in this way of thinking. Had we chosen private school, we most certainly would NOT have built a home in Ladue. We would have chosen a surrounding community where property values were lower and taxes were lower. At the time, it seemed worth it in light of the great schools. But, if class sizes increase, Spanish is eliminated for lower grades, music is reduced, PE is impacted, well then, it does not seem like the best decision at the time. You realize that others will have that same thought process when deciding whether to come to our community in the future. I am not asking that my kids get the same education offered by MICDS. All I want is the same education offered when I moved to this community.

The plan is to increase class sizes which is the MOST critical reduction in the minds of most parents. Many Kindergarten classes already exceed Ladue standards AND MO standards. There are Kindergarten classes with 21 to 23 students and one teacher. This is far from acceptable, yet this tax increase will only prevent further increases in class size. It won't take us back to acceptable Ladue standards.

One of the other cuts that will probably be made is in Gifted Education. With the increases in class size Gifted education becomes even more critical. Meeting the needs of the students at the top is difficult in large class sizes. Teachers don't have time to differentiate their instruction to the children at either end of the learning curve.

This is really the crux of the matter - Class size. There are many other cuts that have been proposed that may be considered less important, but that is because the Board and Administration are trying (rightfully) to do everything they can to protect class size. There is only so much that can be cut though and class size is already rising.
Also what "deep cuts" specifically have been made in Clayton?

Further increases in class size DO represent DEEP cuts.

By the way the average class size at MICDS is 16 and at Burroughs it is 13 (according to their web sites). Can you tell us specifically what deep cuts have been made at the independent schools in St. Louis?

Ladue Schools class size policy states that class sizes meet or be lower than the desirable state class size standards as set forth by the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education (DESE). The district's preferable class sizes are:
Grades Students per Class

K-3 17-19
4-5 20-22
6-8 20-23
9-12 up to 23
(determined by student selection and educational needs)

The educational needs of the students will be the primary determination in all class size decisions. Class sizes are guidelines; actual class size may occasionally exceed the guidelines.

Back to top
Missouri's State Standards

The Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education's desirable standards are:
Grades Students per Class

K-2 20
3-4 22
5-6 25
7-12 28

MJF- The Commit 2 Ladue website spells the cuts that will occur if Prop 1 fails. These are just some of them. You can see the full report on the website.

Classroom Teachers (3-12) $585,000 Increase potential class sizes to Missouri Department of
Elementary and Secondary Education (DESE) Maximum in
grades 3-12. Anticipated to eliminate (4) FTE HS; (2) FTE MS;
(3) FTE Elementary.
Elementary Spanish (K-2) $145,000 Eliminate (2) FTE
Music Program (4-12) $145,000 Eliminate (2) FTE
Physical Education (K-12) $310,000 Replace (4) elementary PE teachers (1 at each elementary
school) with certified teacher assistants; eliminate (1) middle
school and (1) high school PE teacher
Guidance Counseling (High School) $100,000 Eliminate 1 FTE
Equivalent of (1) Additional FTE $100,000 Area to be determined.
Subtotal $1,385,000

If you read the school finance report you will see that from 2009 enrollment increased 238 students and since that time appraised values have fallen 4%. The reason that Ladue has been able to last 29 years without an increase is because home values have gone up but they have fallen since 2009 at a time when enrollment has continued to grow. In response they have cut 7 million from the budget. If you research it futher you will see that Ladue teachers are not making more money but in fact are making less today than a few years ago. Again all of this is information that is out and available.

Better yet MJF look at the slideshow presented by the district which explains all of this in better and more comprhensive detail.

http://www.ladueschools.net/prop1/index.php/presentation-schedule

I find it sad that the strident voices demanding an increase in property taxes in a recession are so quick to make this about public vs private. As someone who went to a public school I have news for them. It is about the money that some of us don't have in a recession. Perhaps, they should take this into account. There are more students who live in the school's district who attend private than public. There are more private than public schools. If all those kids suddenly decided to attend Ladue, enrollment would double. Taxes would need to more than double, taking away the perceived value argument in terms of real estate. These people are subsidizing your kids and yet, you seem to treat them as ungrateful kid haters just because they have a disagreement with you over how the money is being spent at the schools. The level of opprobrium being spewed by these supporters who feel "they moved here and were promised something," is incredible. Who promised you? Some real estate agent? Where is the campaign about why I should pay more? All I hear is what a bunch of bad citizens the other side is. I see people who do not understand how taxes work, or how to read financials and who use scare tactics instead of persuasion and if we don't like it maybe we should just move. I hear everything but why I should pay more. I am sure most of the commenters here have been organized by the vote for it campaign, but it is really a pretty sad strategy. Everyone I know is voting no.

I have been told that 1/2 of MICDS kids live in the Ladue School District. That's about 600 just from that school. If that is also the case at John Burroughs, you would have an increase of 1/3 of the student body right there. When you add Villa, Chaminade, St. Joe's, the Lutheran, Jewish and Community schools you are going be very close, not even counting the nearby private schools like Viz, Desmet and Westminster. You are fooling yourself if you can't see it. Calling it a "lie" is simply another example of how this Yes committee simply attacks people who want to have a discussion and how it has no reasons to vote for it other than they want it. I read the No website cover to cover. All they seem to want is some credit for those schools being in the district and having an impact on home values. You then took that and spun it into something else entirely. Perhaps if you are still getting a paycheck this is no big deal to you. If you are living off savings that have been returning almost nothing and getting Social Security that has seen only one increase in three years combined with rising costs for everything, maybe you would not be so selfish. Your response is that maybe I should just move if I can't afford it. My response is to vote no. We are all cutting back. I will sacrifice for worthy ideas, I will not sacrifice so they can all get raises.

I, too, have read the NO Website cover to cover and have found many misleading facts. One example deals with the home values you discuss. You name all of the private schools within the "Ladue School District" but the NO website only quotes the average home value in Ladue (63124) to show an artificially high number. The County Assessor provides accurate data for home values in our entire school district but the NO group believes that just the 63124 zip code is a more accurate representation. I think it is not realistic to think that private school families only move to 63124. The Ladue School District is much more than one zip code. So, in order to provide fair and accurate figures to voters, stats from the entire district should be included.

Also, the NO group would like voters to believe that raises are a big part of Prop 1, but they are not. Of course a large portion of the operating budget is spent on salaries and benefits. Education is a service oriented business. So, to say that the district spends most of its budget on "gold plated" salaries is extraordinarily misleading. MICDS spends more than 70% of its operating budget on salaries and benefits. Other schools have similar percentages. So, this budget crisis is not because of overpaid teachers. It is due to decreased home values, which resulted in less tax dollars going to the operating budget.

Again, you change the subject. I think that is all I need to hear. I'm done.

Actually, I purposefully tailored my comments to only address the issues you raised and did not raise anything new (although I certainly could have included many more examples of misleading facts). But, I understand it is difficult explain the misleading facts cited by the NO website. If you believe something that I have stated is false or misleading, I would appreciate knowing it.

The best data I can find indicates that about 1/3 of the school-age children who live in the district attend private schools. This is based on 2000 Census data, so it might be off a little, but I doubt the 2010 Census data would show much movement from this stat. Given the economic conditions of 2010 vs. 2000, and the vast influx of new families from the teardown/rebuild movement during the decade, I also doubt that the percentage of private school educated children went up. So to state that there are more private school educated children in the district than public just isn't even remotely true. Even in 2000, the ratio was about 2:1 public to private. Move all of them to public schools, and enrollment would increase by 50%, not double.

I can provide documentation and calculations if you wish.

What is best for the kids?

I ask myself that question many, many times throughout the day when I am teaching your child.

I ask myself that question when I sacrifice time before school to work with a group of students.
I ask myself that question when I sacrifice time with my family to attend school functions in the evening.
I ask myself that question when I sacrifice my lunch break to email you a concern I have about your son.
I ask myself that question when I sacrifice time with my family to stay at school until 9:00 pm during conference week.
I ask myself that question when I sacrifice hours on the weekend to prepare for the week ahead so that your student is prepared for the MAP test.
I ask myself that question that when I am faced with the day-to-day challenges of being the best teacher your child deserves. What is best for the kids?

The sacrifices I make each day are for my students. I am making those sacrifices so that they can become doctors, judges, architects, writers, artists, policemen, teachers, nurses. I am doing my part...are you?

Please vote "Yes" on Prop. 1. It is what is best for the kids.

Jfb's words:

"Baer - knowing you are an ex-teacher explains your overt bias. And frankly, robots are teaching the kids. Reflexively liberal, unionized, robots. Like, well, certain impartial editors. Nice work on your scientific poll, though."

All the name calling and negative comments will not change the outcome one iota. How about we join forces to help Ladue to become an even better district. I find it odd that Ladue over 50+ years has been recognized as one of the finest public school districts in the nation with over 90 percent of its students going on to four year colleges, yet there are many in this community who want to savage the district and punish it financially. I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course

Jack K, your comments are well stated.